And, Ampersand, and D&D



NearbyGamers General
Run some, play more (indie RPGs)
2007-03-25 04:50:40

I think that the branding, licensing, and logo for Dungeons & Dragons all use the ampersand (&) rather than spelling out the word "and". Yet, we currently have the Dungeons & Dragons tag redirecting to Dungeons and Dragons. Is there a good reason to do it this way, rather than preferring the publisher's spelling?

Lee-Anne, Nitpicky after Midnight.

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inveterate gamer; prolific GM; world designer
2007-03-25 05:20:13

Well spotted. I'll mend it.

Run some, play more (indie RPGs)
2007-03-25 06:19:46

Wow, you're a braver tagger than I. Look at all those redirects!

inveterate gamer; prolific GM; world designer
2007-03-25 07:13:42

They're done now. I have, among other more questionable virtues, an astonishing capacity for taking pains.

While I was changing all those re-directs I noticed a few issues.

  1. We are redirecting to "Dungeons and Dragons" a few tags such as "Drager & Dæmoner", "Drakar Och Demoner" and "Drakar & Demoner" which are not, as far as I know, versions of D&D. There was a 1982 Swedish-language RPG called "Drakar Och Demoner", now in its 6th edition, and I thing they might be versions of that. Someone who actually knows "Drakar Och Demoner" ought to review the redirects.
  2. We don't redirect "AD&D" to "Dungeons & Dragons", but we do redirect "Classic D&D", "OD&D", and "expert D&D". Aren;t those alternative versions which still have their adherents, just as AD&D is?
  3. We are directing a few numbers to "Dungeons & Dragons", particularly 3.0, 3.5, and 3.5e. Are we sure that there are no other games of any sort that have those numbers as names? Likewise "3rd edition".

- Brett

The gamer that runs this site
2007-03-25 13:13:56

I'm certain there are other games with 3rd editions, but I think it's only D&D players who refer to their games with just the version number in public and expect everyone to get it.

Thanks for the tag editing.

Lazy Gaming at its Best
2007-03-26 16:24:30

According to Wikipedia "Drakar Och Demoner" IS the Swedish version of D&D. Though its in another language its STILL dungeons and dragons. Is it not?

Lazy Gaming at its Best
2007-03-26 16:30:57

Also, if We're going to use the tag "Dungeons & Dragons" for the current version of D&D (3rd and 3.5 edition inlcuded) then the tag for AD&D should be Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.

Which should also redirect all "sub versions" to it, such as AD&D Second Edition and any similar tags.

If additional older versions of D&D are going to be esperated then the full version name should be used

inveterate gamer; prolific GM; world designer
2007-03-26 22:25:20

BrooklynKnight wrote: According to Wikipedia "Drakar Och Demoner" IS the Swedish version of D&D.

I don't know. It's just that I don't think redirecting the tags (especially between different language-versions) is so urgent that we have to do anything about it without consulting someone who knows.

According to John H Kim's online Encyclopedia of Role-Playing Games, Darkar och Demoner is:

A popular Swedish-language medieval fantasy RPG, originally a generic system for a variety of fantasy worlds. The first edition is a direct translation of Steve Perrin's "Magic World" from the Worlds of Wonder game, but subsequent editions developed away from that. The "Expert" expansion in 1985 introduces many changes. It converts from d100 to d20 for all skill rolls, adds a more point-based (but still partly random) character creation, and adds new occupations, skills, and magic. The 4th edition folds in the "Expert" changes into the main rules. The 5th edition keeps the same rules but introduces the setting of Chronopia, by Bill King, a Tolkien-esque fantasy world with a city ruled by time-travelling mages. The 6th edition is a total remake of the rules system (including new concepts like levels), and includes a new world taking after Scandanavian myth integrated into the rulebook, featuring and inspired by the artwork of John Bauer.

That doesn't sound to me like a translation, or even a version, of D&D. And on the subject of RPGs, I trust John Kim more than I trust Wikipedia.


inveterate gamer; prolific GM; world designer
2007-03-26 22:33:31

I went to correct Wikipedia, and found tht someone has been there before me. It now says, correctly, that "Drakar och Demoner" is based on BRP, and makes no mention of D&D.

Drakar och Demoner (Swedish for "Dragons and Demons") is a Swedish fantasy role-playing game first published in 1982 by the game publishing company Äventyrsspel ("Adventure Games", later renamed to Target Games).


First edition was basically a translation of Steve Perrin's Basic Role-Playing (which in turn is based on RuneQuest) combined with the Magic World booklet. One of the available player races, the anthropomorphic ducks, was incorporated from Glorantha.

Second Edition was published in 1984, rewriting the text from scratch, fixing many translation errors and glitches in the rules although no other major changes were made.

The transition to a new system of rules began in 1985, not with Third Edition which mostly corrected spelling errors, but with the publication of an "Expert" rule expansion: Drakar och Demoner Expert. This among other things introduced hit locations and the use of a 20-sided die instead of the percentile die.

Fourth Edition in 1991 was a major revision of the rules, obsoleting Drakar och Demoner Expert by incorporating it into the basic rules and then expanding them.

In 1994, Target Games released Fifth Edition. This version was notable mainly because it came with an integrated world description. Changes to rules was minor, mostly reflecting the new campaign setting.

In the end of the 1990s, Target Games found itself in economic difficulties and ceased its publication of role-playing games. The rights to Drakar och Demoner was transferred to Paradox Entertainment and they in turn licensed them to the gaming company Riotminds. Riotminds created a brand new Drakar och Demoner in 2000. This Sixth Edition meant a complete overhaul of the game rules to support a much less generic game world. The idea of "Expert" rules was re-used, and many rules expansions followed.

In 2006, Riotminds consolidated the line with Seventh Edition, which like Sixth Edition before it, meant many rule changes to better support its chosen campaign world. This edition is the first boxed edition in many years.

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